Curse

Neo-LD · Jul 22, 2005, 08:23 PM // 20:23

The issue is, phantom pain says that when it "ends" it inflicts its deep wound. If it "ends" prematurely via a removal spell, does it still count as 'ending', therefore triggering the deep wound anyways?

If so, then woa, Phantom Pain + Shatter Delusions can inflict a deep wound and ~70 damage within the first ~2 seconds of the battle. Thats like, 150 total damage. In 2 seconds.

I know it only works on full HP enemies, and the combo has a lousy recharge, but still that is one heck of a way to storm out of the gate, persecuting the poor enemy monk. After this combo you can just play with the rest of your mesmer toys like backfire diversion and migraine. (all of which can also be comboed later with Shatter Delusions)

mamluk · Jul 22, 2005, 09:43 PM // 21:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

The issue is, phantom pain says that when it "ends" it inflicts its deep wound. If it "ends" prematurely via a removal spell, does it still count as 'ending', therefore triggering the deep wound anyways?

If so, then woa, Phantom Pain + Shatter Delusions can inflict a deep wound and ~70 damage within the first ~2 seconds of the battle. Thats like, 150 total damage. In 2 seconds.

Ok, if you think that is a good combo, let me blow your socks off:

Fragility -> Phantom Pain -> Shatter Delusions -> Virulence

Virulence is a necro death magic elite that gives a target disease, weakness and poison (undocumented but it gives it) if the target already has a condition.

You can calculate the damage, but you will be giving the target about 100 damage when you cast virulence and 3 seconds later (assuming you put no points in death magic) they will take another 100 damage. Plus the damage from the deep wound which is 20% of their max health, usually around 90-100 health. The Shatter will do 40-70 damage, so you are looking at around 350 damage in a few seconds.

This is the fragility virulence build and it is loads of fun to play with.

Also, fragility works great with warriors and rangers who give conditions, so it has great utility possibilities to the rest of your team.

firstwave · Jul 24, 2005, 10:19 PM // 22:19

i like to add more to the fragility build. What I usually do is to inflict more conditions using plague touch. Very fun to use after a warrior cripples, bleeds you. You can suddenly go all out on the warrior using fragility, phantom pain, shatter delusion, virulence, plague touch twice.

He won't know what hit him.

arredondo · Jul 24, 2005, 10:21 PM // 22:21

It works; I've been using it for over a month. I have at least six builds based on this great combo. I posted the beginning of a new one in that all-Mesmer team debate thread yesterday:

Spiking Mesmer vs. spiking Air Ele example

I've combined it with Energy Surge and Energy Burn (with some other supporting stuff) to get an effective damage+energy zap build. Other stuff I use, all give you BIG damage in a short time period (variable damage depends on your attribute points and the degen time allowed):

1. Fragility-->Phantom Pain-->Shatter Delusions---> Virulence as indicated above (Virulence drops Poison folks!). Around 85%+ damage.

2. Soul Barbs--->Phantom Pain--->Wastrel's Worry (2 or 3 times)--> Shatter Delusions--->Feast of Corruption. Around 75%+ damage

3. Conjure Phantom--->Phantom Pain (total -8 degen)--> Energy Surge-->Energy Burn-->Shatter Delusions (-5 degen continues). Around 70%+ damage.

4. Phantom Pain-->Imagined Burden-->Illusionary Weapon-->Flurry-->Shatter Delusions. 75%+ damage... Flurry IW until you see dead people.

5. Blood Renewal (-33 health)--> Illusion of Weakness (-40% health)--> Grenth's Balance--->Phantom Pain--->Shatter Delusions. Does 80%+... a goofy build that requires you to swear at the Monks if they heal you.

In any of these you can add another skill to finish them off (Energy Burn, secondary attacks, etc.). I get so many 10 second kills it isn't even funny. Sure, all of this can be stopped, countered, etc. but so can other strong builds. The moral of the story is that before some old timer gets on his high horse and tells you what is and isn't possible for spiking Mesmers, just laugh to yourself, ignore him and move on.

ComMan · Jul 24, 2005, 11:42 PM // 23:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

5. Blood Renewal (-33 health)--> Illusion of Weakness (-40% health)--> Grenth's Balance--->Phantom Pain--->Shatter Delusions. Does 80%+... a goofy build that requires you to swear at the Monks if they heal you.

This is the single most ingenious combo I have ever seen.

Deep Wound does not take the top 20% of your health. If you're already halfway dead and you take a deep wound, you still lose health.

arredondo · Jul 25, 2005, 12:39 AM // 00:39

Deep Wound lowers your 20% of your max health as if the amount was never there. If you started with 500 health, 100 is taken from you regardless of how much you have left.

The Grenth's Balance setup isn't as crazy as it looks with practice... you are gaining health regen from Blood Renewal, and Illusion of Weakness simply stores that 40% health elsewhere... you still have it. So when Grenth's Balance is triggered, you have 50%+ health with fast regen and 200+ health in the bank.

Not only that, you get another health bonus when BR ends. You have to almost kiss the brink of death to make it work, but it works (unless someone heals you). I start off every round... "Whatever you do, DON'T HEAL ME".

Malis Darkstar · Jul 25, 2005, 09:19 PM // 21:19

I love it. And I'm rather proud of having figured out the Fragility + Phantom Pain + Virulence thing all on my own, especially since I've only been playing for a few weeks.

I didn't know about the unlisted poison on Virulence though... thats sick... add a conjured phantasm and you've got health degen 13 for 13+seconds...

Muhahahhaahha!

Red Locust · Jul 25, 2005, 10:04 PM // 22:04

What's with all this craze over mes/necro hex builds being posted all over the forums? Most of the hexes in those chains depend on the hexes before them being successful.

Now there are a large number of things wrong with this: hex breaker kills it, nature's renewal kills it, spellbreaker kills it, condition removal (martyr in particular) kills it, getting energy drained and left unable to finish the chain kills it, and all these are extremely common things in PvP.

They're nice builds, probably work in the arena where you have a good chance of not facing monks or mesmers, but don't expect unrivaled success in most other cases.

Bladen Skull · Jul 25, 2005, 10:20 PM // 22:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Locust

condition removal (martyr in particular) kills it

This only adds to the Fragility damage, seriously this doesn't help the one being forced under all these conditions. Your listing everything that can counter the build, yes its counterable, name one thing that ISNT in PvP. They never said this build was invincable, and they never said this build doesn't have flaws.

Shinsei · Jul 25, 2005, 10:28 PM // 22:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bladen Skull

name one thing that ISNT in PvP

Nature's Renewal.

Bladen Skull · Jul 25, 2005, 10:31 PM // 22:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shinsei

Nature's Renewal.

I take that back then, lol. :P

Red Locust · Jul 26, 2005, 12:31 AM // 00:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shinsei

Nature's Renewal.

You can always interrupt it, what with it being a 5s cast and all.

Kali Ma · Jul 26, 2005, 12:37 AM // 00:37

Part of the power with Phantom Pain is that when it's removed, whether by an enemy or the one casting, it causes a Deep Wound which can then be spread like an AoE condition with Epidemic - which is a spell not a hex. The elite skill Fevered Dreams can also be used to do this, though it's a hex.

Quote:

Now there are a large number of things wrong with this: hex breaker kills it...

Hex Breaker only kills hexes cast on you, and then for only one hex at a time and then needs to be recast. So one could purposefully cast a low energy/recharge hex, immediately followed by Phantom Pain.

The other hex removal spells for allies only remove the last hex cast, so this is another use for Phantom Pain... immediately follow the actual hex one wants to cast with Phantom Pain, then when a hex removal spell is cast only PP gets removed, the first hex stays, and a deep wound is inflicted.

Quote:

nature's renewal kills it...

It's also easily interruptible. And if the Ranger and Mesmer start casting at the same time, the Mesmer is going to get Fragility and Phantom Pain off with 2 seconds or more to spare, depending on how high their Fast Casting is. Then when Nature's Renewal kicks in so does the Deep Wound, which can still be spread by Epidemic. Plus all subsequent hexes from that point on only take twice as long to cast... not a big deal on spells with 1/4, 1 or 2 sec casting times, especially with high Fast Casting.

Quote:

spellbreaker kills it...

For only 15 seconds, with a 45 sec regen... so there's 30 seconds where it doesn't block anything. And if the mesmer uses the practice of casting low energy/recharge spells as opening volleys, then Spellbreaker is not really a problem as they can just move to annoying someone else for 15 seconds then come back. A clever mesmer doesn't necessarily cast the hex they really want you to get up front... it's often a feint or a diversion to either eat up their targets energy or make them use a spell at the wrong time.

Quote:

condition removal (martyr in particular) kills it

Phantom Pain waits 10 sec before initiating the deep wound on it's own, so the enemy caster would need to either remove the hex first or time Martyr to be cast at just the right time. In either event, it's an energy drain and the monk gets the deep wound, which doesn't suck. Epidemic or Fevered Dreams can be cast on them right after they used Martyr to spread the deep wound.

And then there's Fragility... each time a condition is begun (when Phantom Pain is hex removed) and when the condition ends (Martyr), the foe receives damage at each point. Fragility can be cast either before Phantom Pain or during the 10 second window before the deep wound.

Quote:

getting energy drained and left unable to finish the chain kills it...

And that is a good time to cast Ether Lord on them, when one's energy is too low to continue, since it empties one's energy pool completely. It only takes 5 energy, and at -3 energy degen to them and +3 energy regen to you, it's very helpful. I'll often cast this when my energy gets around 5 or so, and have combos planned which get my energy down to 5 quickly just so I can use this spell.

Quote:

They're nice builds, probably work in the arena where you have a good chance of not facing monks or mesmers, but don't expect unrivaled success in most other cases.

I hear ya, and that's part of being a mesmer really... there's no surefire combo that can't be countered. But having the ability to counter the counters is part of what makes a mesmer great. And even if these combos don't reach the theoretical "80%" damage like listed above, they have the effect of at least either: creating a deep wound, spreading the condition, protecting other hexes from getting removed, stealing energy and attention from targets, or basically just causing a mess that someone has to clean up.... which is never a bad thing.

Imho, Mesmer builds like this aren't solely about inflicting direct damage like with other spell caster professions, so much as creating a deadly diversion that has to be attended to by someone on the other team... the damage done is really a bonus, and devastating if left unchecked. If timed well and cast on the right target, it has a high probability of succeeding on at least some level, one way or another.

Shinsei · Jul 26, 2005, 01:00 AM // 01:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Locust

You can always interrupt it, what with it being a 5s cast and all.

Ofcourse, with it not counting as a spell and with the ranger having access to various evasion stances, who can't counter NR?

Oh wait, we can diversion it! .......nope, he just used oath shot.

Red Locust · Jul 26, 2005, 01:04 AM // 01:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shinsei

Ofcourse, with it not counting as a spell and with the ranger having access to various evasion stances, who can't counter NR?

Oh wait, we can diversion it! .......nope, he just used oath shot.

wild blow for the win

But yeah, when it comes down to it, spirit rangers are damn hard to stop without the proper tools.

Yukito Kunisaki · Jul 26, 2005, 07:34 AM // 07:34

Bring back unnatural signet!!!

Kali Ma · Jul 26, 2005, 07:45 AM // 07:45

Quote:

Ofcourse, with it not counting as a spell and with the ranger having access to various evasion stances, who can't counter NR?
Oh wait, we can diversion it! .......nope, he just used oath shot.

Leech Signet only takes 1/4 to cast and will interupt a non-spell skill like Nature's Renewal, giving the caster up to 17 energy. Add Mantra of Signets beforehand and it can be used repeatedly for 22 seconds to stop attempts made after Oath Shot. With the elite Echo onboard, these three alone can be combined to perpetually interupt just about anything with almost zero casting time and for neglible energy cost - actually, negative cost considering the energy bonus for each Leech Signet use.

Cry of Frustration will interupt it as well, taking only 3/4 to cast and finishing with an AoE attack of up to 37 damage for each enemy in that area.

The Man · Jul 26, 2005, 08:17 AM // 08:17

Any team worth it's salt removes fragility immediately when it hits.

Shinsei · Jul 26, 2005, 09:16 AM // 09:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kali Ma

Leech Signet only takes 1/4 to cast and will interupt a non-spell skill like Nature's Renewal, giving the caster up to 17 energy. Add Mantra of Signets beforehand and it can be used repeatedly for 22 seconds to stop attempts made after Oath Shot. With the elite Echo onboard, these three alone can be combined to perpetually interupt just about anything with almost zero casting time and for neglible energy cost - actually, negative cost considering the energy bonus for each Leech Signet use.

Cry of Frustration will interupt it as well, taking only 3/4 to cast and finishing with an AoE attack of up to 37 damage for each enemy in that area.

Leech signet will only give you the energy if the action was a spell. Sure, you're right that it'll interrupt, and that Echo and mantra of signets will lessen the repeat so it matches the casting of NR, but look at it in full scale. The unit you're putting mantra of signets and echo will have no other use to the team than to hold NR out of the game, if that's what you're building for. That's a lot of effort to prepare for a single skill that is so light to use, and if they just pack another copy of NR on another unit, this build loses it's point. You simply cannot hold NR out of the game, especially in multi team scenarios.

Neo-LD · Jul 26, 2005, 11:25 AM // 11:25

Rangers can cast the spirits before you get in range for interupt.